I wonder if monotheism is innately patriarchal, or is it that in a patriarchy, if you imagine only one god, is it that then the god must be male? Are there monotheisms with a female god?
I wrote all about this question in my chapter on Akhenaten in the Good Kings, and my conclusion was YES. This is a top down religious system, started by a male king, in a system that usually supported a male, not female, king. But I think that at the beginning of his religious experimentation, Akhenaten tried to include the feminine. His (and Nefertiti’s?) colossal sandstone statues at Karnak include feminine traits—long wigs associated with elite women, body shapes associated with femininity, so he IS trying to include both masculine and feminine in his earthly manifestations of the sun god. And his hymn to the Aten also tries to include a feminine understanding of God, kind of like a Gnostic understanding of the Holy Spirit as feminine… but yes, in the end, the ONE GOD is still overwhelmingly male. I think of it like Communism, a great idea in theory that everyone should be equal, but put that into patriarchal systems, and it will always go wrong. Patriarchy is about hoarding, competition, fighting, and winning. It eats everything that is put into it.
This is absolutely fascinating ,for several reasons:
1) the religious implications of becoming more literal in worship, cutting out the middle man and monumental building for the “abstract”yet literal deity and bureaucratic priests (for want of a better word) and
2) the quantities of food in relation to building obelisks, monuments etc to deities versus feeding the population and offering to the Aten in the quantities shown in reliefs and in this discussion. There is a paper discussing the human remains found at Aketaten and levels of malnutrition found in the bones. If the food is not being returned to the people, where is it going and what were the penalties for taking from the offering tables when you are hungry?
Very interesting commentary on the Roman Catholic and protestant religions. I think we forget that much of the ritual, the ritual giving of the people is in saying the prayers, in the songs and the psalms that is similar to potentially what i Akenaten was also doing.
It is true that you see more ritual in the Roman Catholic , Episcopal , Lutheran religion, but the Presbyterian‘s also provide a source of ritual in how their prayers are laid out and how The service is laid out and again is similar to what you’re talking about with Akenaten.
Even the Buddhist and Hindi religions provide a method for that service and offerings and the participation of the congregation the people in providing prayers and song. Even the Greeks and Romans borrowed from Egypt.
Very interesting discussion.
I have often thought that much of the Catholic religious activities have come from the time in Egypt. I refer to the holy of holy, the use of incense, how temples were built and who is allowed in the inner sanctuary and I think there’s a lot more. I’m not a comparative religion person, but it doesn’t take much to see if you’re willing to look at the similarities.
Always enjoy your discussions and they make me think and look at an idea/ topic from a different perspective.
What is your opinion on that the offering lists in the “old” system which we find in tombs and temples are not only a list of things to be offered but also a replacement? Let’s say an easy way to do the real thing with only a spoken or even written “cheaper” alternative. This in addition to what you two talked about which seems to me as a social economic exhange as you explained it.
The objective behind all those altars can be found in the sacrificial activity of Moses and the divine manifestations he produced.. A clue lies in the "sword" which King David begged Yahweh to sheath; the same sword that Joshua saw the angel holding, the same flashing "sword" the prevented Adam and Eve from re-entering Eden
I wonder if monotheism is innately patriarchal, or is it that in a patriarchy, if you imagine only one god, is it that then the god must be male? Are there monotheisms with a female god?
I wrote all about this question in my chapter on Akhenaten in the Good Kings, and my conclusion was YES. This is a top down religious system, started by a male king, in a system that usually supported a male, not female, king. But I think that at the beginning of his religious experimentation, Akhenaten tried to include the feminine. His (and Nefertiti’s?) colossal sandstone statues at Karnak include feminine traits—long wigs associated with elite women, body shapes associated with femininity, so he IS trying to include both masculine and feminine in his earthly manifestations of the sun god. And his hymn to the Aten also tries to include a feminine understanding of God, kind of like a Gnostic understanding of the Holy Spirit as feminine… but yes, in the end, the ONE GOD is still overwhelmingly male. I think of it like Communism, a great idea in theory that everyone should be equal, but put that into patriarchal systems, and it will always go wrong. Patriarchy is about hoarding, competition, fighting, and winning. It eats everything that is put into it.
This is absolutely fascinating ,for several reasons:
1) the religious implications of becoming more literal in worship, cutting out the middle man and monumental building for the “abstract”yet literal deity and bureaucratic priests (for want of a better word) and
2) the quantities of food in relation to building obelisks, monuments etc to deities versus feeding the population and offering to the Aten in the quantities shown in reliefs and in this discussion. There is a paper discussing the human remains found at Aketaten and levels of malnutrition found in the bones. If the food is not being returned to the people, where is it going and what were the penalties for taking from the offering tables when you are hungry?
Very interesting commentary on the Roman Catholic and protestant religions. I think we forget that much of the ritual, the ritual giving of the people is in saying the prayers, in the songs and the psalms that is similar to potentially what i Akenaten was also doing.
It is true that you see more ritual in the Roman Catholic , Episcopal , Lutheran religion, but the Presbyterian‘s also provide a source of ritual in how their prayers are laid out and how The service is laid out and again is similar to what you’re talking about with Akenaten.
Even the Buddhist and Hindi religions provide a method for that service and offerings and the participation of the congregation the people in providing prayers and song. Even the Greeks and Romans borrowed from Egypt.
Very interesting discussion.
I have often thought that much of the Catholic religious activities have come from the time in Egypt. I refer to the holy of holy, the use of incense, how temples were built and who is allowed in the inner sanctuary and I think there’s a lot more. I’m not a comparative religion person, but it doesn’t take much to see if you’re willing to look at the similarities.
Always enjoy your discussions and they make me think and look at an idea/ topic from a different perspective.
What is your opinion on that the offering lists in the “old” system which we find in tombs and temples are not only a list of things to be offered but also a replacement? Let’s say an easy way to do the real thing with only a spoken or even written “cheaper” alternative. This in addition to what you two talked about which seems to me as a social economic exhange as you explained it.
The objective behind all those altars can be found in the sacrificial activity of Moses and the divine manifestations he produced.. A clue lies in the "sword" which King David begged Yahweh to sheath; the same sword that Joshua saw the angel holding, the same flashing "sword" the prevented Adam and Eve from re-entering Eden