Kara, I would really like to see this discussion repeated with a specialist in Roman History. While I think your ideas on the death of Cleopatra and the optics of the conquest of Egypt are quite thought-provoking, I think there are other factors and concepts that would much enrich the discussion: the dichotomy honos/virtus in the Roman mind and the different conception of expected honorable conduct between men and women, the conduct expected of a Roman vs. a non-Roman and how that affects the optics of suicide (which I really think is essential in this context), and the whole historical context of the civil wars and how bringing Cleopatra into the mix serves to un-romanify Mark Antony and delegitimise him in Roman public opinion, thus concentrating the loyalty of the Caesarian faction and society at large in Octavian - this, in turn, determines the swift removal of Caesarion once Egypt is taken over, since as you rightly point out the boy could potentially become a dynastic rival to Octavian.
Also, the assumption that Caesar was murdered because of his regal activities in Egypt, so to speak, is breathtakingly bold and would in itself merit a whole separate discussion that I would love to hear.
Please do keep up these talks, I find them very stimulating and I always learn new things.
I haven't finished listening to this yet because of time constraints but I'm popping in to say: wow, I need to unravel how playing the game of Honor and thinking that the rules apply to me as they would to my male cousins or my brother has REALLY done me dirty in life.
Absolutely loved the discussion on the end about the unspoken debt that women are born with. It is just such a fascinating thing to think about and see how it is still so pervasive an undercurrent in society today.
Side note, Marc Antony failed at his suicide attempt according to Plutarch, Appian and Cassius Dio which was seen as a horrible and humiliating weakness in the Romans eyes. Not only did he fail to die honorably but he had himself hauled on a palette and squeezed through a window in Cleopatras mausoleum so he could be with her. In today’s reading that is seen as romantic but for the Roman propaganda machine it was all highly dishonorable.
Kara, I would really like to see this discussion repeated with a specialist in Roman History. While I think your ideas on the death of Cleopatra and the optics of the conquest of Egypt are quite thought-provoking, I think there are other factors and concepts that would much enrich the discussion: the dichotomy honos/virtus in the Roman mind and the different conception of expected honorable conduct between men and women, the conduct expected of a Roman vs. a non-Roman and how that affects the optics of suicide (which I really think is essential in this context), and the whole historical context of the civil wars and how bringing Cleopatra into the mix serves to un-romanify Mark Antony and delegitimise him in Roman public opinion, thus concentrating the loyalty of the Caesarian faction and society at large in Octavian - this, in turn, determines the swift removal of Caesarion once Egypt is taken over, since as you rightly point out the boy could potentially become a dynastic rival to Octavian.
Also, the assumption that Caesar was murdered because of his regal activities in Egypt, so to speak, is breathtakingly bold and would in itself merit a whole separate discussion that I would love to hear.
Please do keep up these talks, I find them very stimulating and I always learn new things.
"The Michael Mann rubric"? Michael Mann the filmmaker?
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/sources-of-social-power/71430B753552703F801E9C6087E524D6
Ha no Michael Mann the social historian who wrote The Sources of Social Power.
I haven't finished listening to this yet because of time constraints but I'm popping in to say: wow, I need to unravel how playing the game of Honor and thinking that the rules apply to me as they would to my male cousins or my brother has REALLY done me dirty in life.
SMDH.
Absolutely loved the discussion on the end about the unspoken debt that women are born with. It is just such a fascinating thing to think about and see how it is still so pervasive an undercurrent in society today.
Side note, Marc Antony failed at his suicide attempt according to Plutarch, Appian and Cassius Dio which was seen as a horrible and humiliating weakness in the Romans eyes. Not only did he fail to die honorably but he had himself hauled on a palette and squeezed through a window in Cleopatras mausoleum so he could be with her. In today’s reading that is seen as romantic but for the Roman propaganda machine it was all highly dishonorable.